Many of us in the Vineyard are wrestling with great theological questions & Joshua Hopping is no different. Joshua is the pastor of Payette River Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Idaho. Joshua asked if he could post a question for us hoping it would create thought & a conversation about his wrestling match.
My hope is for many of us to post on this blog, so if you have any thoughts, questions, or rants you'd like to put before the group please let me know. Too, if you have any feedback write a post instead of emailing me so the quest collumnist can see your thoughts & respond.
Joshua Hopping:
Changing Styles
I have a question for you all as I have been wrestling with how our Sunday morning service is going.
While God has continued to show up and bless us with His presence, I’m not so sure if the format of having people sit in rows listening to a lecture is the best way to teach people to follow Jesus. In fact, I know it is NOT the best way – yet it is the way that most people have come to expect (especially those in a rural community like mine).
Knowing this I have been thinking about changing the style of our Sunday service to try to help people learn to do what Jesus did (and is doing).
The idea that came to mind as I thought about this dilemma is not really novel or new – it is actually a throwback to 1970 and ‘80s. My insecurities and questions about this new style stems from never experiencing it or seeing it in action.
So that is the ‘new’ style I’m thinking about?
Well there is two parts to it:
The first part would be to remove the rows of chairs and replace them with round tables (like I said nothing really novel). This would allow folks to enjoy their coffee and snacks (we take turn bring cookies, cakes, quiche, etc to church each week) while reading their Bible (something that is hard to do currently as it requires balancing multiple items and hot liquid while sitting in a chair…not an easy task).
The second part of this shift would require me to change the way I preach – namely, instead of delivering the sermon as a lecture, I would shift gears into a more interactive presentation with questions and answers from the congregation. The picture that I’m envisioning in my mind includes two sub-points in order to make this work:
One – each person would receive a handout outlining the sermons main points with various blanks throughout, forcing folks to pay attention and fill-in-the blanks (again not a new idea as I know lots of churches do this).
Two – During the ‘sermon’ or towards the end (depending on what the topic is and how inactive folks are) I will stop and specially ask for questions or to see if anything needs further clarification.
That’s about it… that is what I have been thinking about. I have bounced the concept off a few folks here at the church and they seem to like it, but I still have some misgivings / concerns that I am hoping you all might be able to help with.
First off, did the circle table thing actually work? I know a lot of Vineyard churches started out that way, but having never attended one that was set up that way I’m wondering if that style was a failure…. or did the churches just get too big to ‘waste’ floor space in that manner?
Secondly, while the Q&A part of the style intrigues me – it also scares me. What if things get out of control? How do I gently and peacefully bring the conversation back to the topic that I felt God wanted to talk about that day? Or, as the case may be, do I just let things go the direction they go instead of trying to direct things back to a certain topic? (Knowing you guys, someone is probably going to say, “Depends – there’re both valid!”)
Thirdly, does having notes with blanks in them actually work? Do they help communicate or do they detract from the move of God? (yeah, yeah… I know… it depends on the person… work with me here…do some broad stereotyping for a minute.) =P
Oh…I should probably give you all some more presuppositions about my view of Sunday morning (for those who don’t know that well). My view of Sunday morning is two folds (hmm…..I’m seeing a trend here):
One: I view Sunday morning as a time of corporate worship – a time when the followers of Jesus can come together and praise the Lord as one body.
Two: Sunday morning is a training ground in which Jesus followers learn how to do the ‘stuff’ so that they can take the presence of God out into the highway, byways, nooks and crannies of our area. It is NOT the end all – it is simple a tool to help facilitate mentoring and training in a highly independent and busy society.
Ok..I’m done now.
What do you all think? Have you seen this done before? Did it work? Fail? Are you still reading this? Should I calm my fears and go for it? Did a pink penguin just walk by?
I am all for thinking out of the box and trying to do church gatherings in culturally relevant and biblical ways.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion should continue for sure.
I have a few thoughts specifically about your idea.
1. Maybe it should be a potluck or sharing event. Supplying food from the church finances might add to the whole idea that the church is here to serve people and people are supposed to just show up and be entertained. Logistically, I don't know how this would work (and I don't know the size of your gathering). If your idea is that the church is the people and everyone gets to contribute, then potluck would be a great way to put feet to that.
2. Are you willing to loose some people over this? Some people aren't going to feel comfortable looking other people in the face and being expected to interact. They might not come back. Some who cling to tradition will also "feel called" to find a church home that fits their style more.
An email sent to me by Chris Jacobs.
ReplyDeleteShould we not worry more about formation of the Spirit than the formation of a room.. I completely understand the concern over how we eat, discuss and worship.. yet where "I" seem to be led is away from idol misgivings and into the room where I can praise the God who saves and heals... as shepherds we are concerned for our sheep, our 'job' is to lead them to green pastures, to the God who waters our soul, guides our footsteps and redirects our missteps... though at times there are droughts and famines we must remember the Kingdom of God is never in trouble.. we want to always jump ship and try something new... Yet for God the only thing that is new is our renewal in Him...
I've always imagined a church with no chairs, making people make a shift.. Literally and internally.. shifting our bodies and souls to a place closer to the earth, the ground that God has given us... closer to our knees.. closer to the bottom humbling us in our places.. Growth starts below the surface, in a place we never see, roots form and we begin to push through the earth to bring forth life and live in the light...
phone sent it before I could finish or reread.. oops :)
These are just ramblings from a man who is no pastor of a church just one who wants to learn how to better... love God love those around us.. love ourselves..
@ LindaFaye – thank you for your comments. =)
ReplyDelete1) I agree with you that any food provided should come from the people and not just bought by the church (with an average attendance of 40, it is also doable). Currently the snacks (cookies or whatnot) provided each Sunday are brought in on a volunteer basis (i.e. folks sign up to bring something for that week). A few years ago we tried having a potluck every Sunday, but it quickly burned out folks as it was a ton of work to plan, organize, host, etc… Now we just do a potluck feast a few times a year as the Lord leads (in fact, we held a potluck party a few week ago after a baptism).
2) Great question!! Yes. I can truly say that I am willing to lose people over this choice – hopefully not! But, I am willing… my heart if for those people who are currently not in a church, people who are scared or nervous about sitting in a lecture hall.
I want a place were farmers and ranchers can get off the tractor that morning and go to church without feeling out of place (did I mention I’m in a very rural community?). I want them to feel comfortable grabbing a cup of coffee and sitting down with friends.
I want a place were people interact with each other and not just walk in, sit down for an hour, and then leave. If this change does that, than I’m ok with some folks leaving – as a mentor once said, “The backdoor is always open.”
@ Chris Jacobs – Yes, you are correct. Our ultimate concern is for people to meet the Living God and be changed by that encounter.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately as much as we may want to separate the spiritual from the physical, we can not. We live in a world that is both spiritual and physical as we ourselves are both.
The way in which a room is designed, organized, setup and layout affects the mood and culture of a group. This is why companies spend millions of dollars paying for internal decorators to plan out a work place or a shopping mall or a coffee shop.
For example, think about the difference be MacDonald’s and Starbucks or another local coffee house. MacDonald’s is designed for people to come in get their food and leave – they do not like nor want people hanging around their building. A local coffee shop (or pub) on the other hand wants people to stay inside their building as the longer they stay the more drinks they will buy.
In the same way, the formation of a church room (or a school gym in our case as we don’t have our own building yet) is crucial to the culture and mission of the fellowship. If the goal of church is simply to have people come into a room, download facts from a preacher, and then leave, then the layout of the room can be very simple and basic. However, if we want to encourage folks to hang out and talk, to fellowship among each other – if we want to make the place conformable to those who have never been to church (a church service is a strange function if you have never been to one before) – than we need to think about the formation of the room.
It is a both/and approach.
We are to think on both levels simultaneously.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteWhen you wrote about people getting off farm equipment and walking in for a cup of coffee I thought of a different venue completely like a coffee shop or something...
It just popped in my head.
So maybe the whole cafe look/feeling could be pretty useful for the morning hard workers who don't want to get all fixed up for "church" maybe like a diner?
just brainstorming with ya. :)
Could you elaborate on your thought? What do you mean by 'cafe look/feel'?
ReplyDeleteWhen you say 'diner', I start thinking about Denny's or IHOP (the pancake place, not the prayer guys).
Some more details that may help your brainstorming:
We are currently meeting in the local elementary school gym as it is the only place in the area that can seat 50 plus folks. Being in a gym means anything we do has to be set up and tore down each Sunday....
Good stuff Joshua. I too wrestle with all this stuff (Linda too). We meet in our house where all of the things you listed are fairly opposite of our set-up; yet at the same time we have the same struggles you have: How to help know the GOSPEL in their hearts & see Jesus' way of life as the way to live.
ReplyDeleteI just listened to Eugene Peterson's (free) podcast about his book "Christ in 10,000 places," (I think that's the title). It's very refreshing & challenging.
Our cultural contexts aren't Jesus' yet at the same time our goal is the same: Christ-likeness.
in late 2009, the Central Maryland Vineyard was in a crisis and we took the opportunity to change the way we did things, mostly running along the same lines.
ReplyDeleteWe had all ready been shifting to have a variety of teaching methods (homeletic, exegetical, devotional and more interactive methods), and when we had our 3 weeks of crisis "family meetings" we re-arranged the room and chairs and brought in sofas and tables and shifted the seating to get rid of the rows, and then sort of left it that way; and then we actually changed the rhythm of our meetings. Following the inspiration from the Kelown Vineyard here was our monthly rhythm:
1st Sunday: Meet for Communion and celebrate Christ's Incarnation-Life-Death-Resurrection, and then have a pot-luck family-style feast. (Focus: Fellowship)
2nd Sunday: Meet for more "normal" meeting (Focus on worship, teaching, and prayer ministry time)
3rd Sunday: Mission Sunday - we had people gather in groups (either thei ministry group of their lifegroup/homegroup/kinship) and take that 3rd Sunday to go out into the comunity to be a collective witness and a foretaste of the Kingdom - some people did treasure hunts and power evangelism/praying in the streets for people, or prayer walking in neighborhoods kind of things, while other groups did more justice/compassion outreach, etc. We also had one small group that would gather to pray and intercede for those groups going out, and then some would meet back at a central location to share and debrief their experiences and then sometimes share a meal. (Focus on being part of our larger community as a collective sign and witness)
4th Sunday: Meet for more "normal" meeting (Focus on worship, teaching, and prayer ministry time)
I personally found this really great, and community-wide it mostly worked well. We found that more people invited (non-church) friends to the 1st and 3rd Sunday activities, and like I said I think it worked well. I think incorporating more "prayer ministry practice" in either the 2nd or 4th Sunday would have been even better...
One of the best things is that is relieved the weekly grind that was taking it's toll on a staff that was completely bi-vocational, so since we were only "teaching/preaching" 2 times a month, that was a relief.
We actually lost very few people (maybe 3 couples during this time) and most of the people really rallied to this, and I remember quite a few people really liked the 1st Sunday, because it allowed us to sit and eat and be together and grow deeper in our actual relationships beyond a 3-minute meet-n-greet time....
@ Sean – so true…different cultures, but same struggles and same King. Help Jesus to follow you.
ReplyDeleteBTW – I’m going to have to hunt up that podcast. :)
@ Steven – wow! That sounds awesome! I love how you all take a week each month to go out into the community as a fellowship. That speaks volumes about your commitment to practically live out the words of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, having folks stay behind and pray for those out and about shows your value of prayer. It is a spiritual battle that is being fought both on the streets and in the prayer ‘closets.’
Yet, as much as I like the sound of that rhythm I don’t see it happening in Sweet. Being in a rural community there are not a lot of places to do treasure hunts or to find and pray for people on the streets (you might could find someone in a cow pasture or hay field, but then you have to try to get the tractor to stopped moving, dodge the cow dog and try not to step on the irrigation pipe…).
However, I must say that your story does give me hope as far as people accepting and embracing changes. You all were able to show the people how the changes could draw them closer to Jesus and each other – which lead to them embracing the changes. Sneaking the couches into the ‘family meetings’ and leaving them there was a nice touch by the way. =P
Joshua,
ReplyDeleteWhen I read your post I don't see anything about vision or values.
To provide feedback on "style" I would have to understand how the new style would be more in line with, or provide more support for, the vision for and values of you church.
You mention that the layout of the room is "crucial" and that you want to see certain activities take place. But once again:
How do the activities you want to see match the vision?
How are those specific activities an outflow of your values?
I wonder if the primary cause for a lack of hanging out, talking and fellowship after (and before) Sunday morning services is the layout of the room.
Thanks for your willingness to ask questions in the open.
Welcome to the conversation Chris! =)
ReplyDeleteHmm… good questions – and ones that I can answer (the ultimate definition of a ‘good’ question):
Vision:
Jesus of Nazareth is the King and Leader of the Payette River Vineyard. We only do what He is doing, say what He is saying as He only does and says what God the Father is doing and saying (John 5:19). This means that everyone in the church has a responsibly to watch and listen to the Lord as He guides and directs our fellowship.
In Luke chapter four, Jesus takes the scroll of Isaiah and reads from chapter 61: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Rolling up the scroll, Jesus then makes a phenomenal statement: “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
The Kingdom of God has come into this Present Evil Age breaking down boundaries and destroying evil. We, as the Body of Christ, are to walk out the mandate of Jesus Christ to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength; love others; “proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons” (Mt 10:7-8; 22:37-40, Mk 12:29-31, Lk 9:1-6).
Values of the Church Structure:
a) The people of the congregation are the Body of Christ and carry out the bulk of the ministry of the church.
b) The church as an organization exists to disciple, mentor, equip, and empower people to go out and do the work of the ministry (Acts 6:1-7; Eph 4:1-16; Exodus 18:13-26) It provides a safe place to practice Kingdom Living so that the people can take it out and live it in their daily lives.
c) People are encouraged to pursue ministries that God calls them to without need for prior authorization. If they need church resources or would like to put the church name on the ministry, they can bring it to the Elder Board for evaluation based on the values and vision of the church.
Additional Comments
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the primary cause for a lack of hanging out, talking and fellowship after (and before) Sunday morning services is the layout of the room.
We don’t actually have a problem with people hanging out and fellowship before and after the service. Most people show up 15 to 30 minutes beforehand just to talk and usually hang afterwards finishing up the snacks and coffee (they even help clean up!)
How do the activities you want to see match the vision?
Our vision (as stated above) is to follow Jesus where He takes us… I know that this may sound vague when compared to a lot of highly crafted and detailed vision statements. Yet, I think the goal of each of us is to follow Jesus and not to become trapped by human wisdom.
As it concerns the activities referenced in the post, I think Jesus is lead us this way. In the time since I originally wrote the post, I have started asking the people in the congregations for questions about the topic that day. The response has been good – abet a tad slow as they are not used to asking questions in public (especially on a Sunday morning). I also met with our church elders and asked them about their thoughts on the round tables. After a few hours of discussion they jumped on board and decided to go with the change. (I am incredibly blessed to have an elder’s board that is willing to take risks and try new things!!)
How are those specific activities an outflow of your values?
Currently the Sunday morning service is a monologue lecture with people staring at a talking head. This format doesn’t seem to match with the value to “disciple, mentor, equip, and empower people to go out and do the work of the ministry.” The hope is that by creating a relaxed atmosphere people will be more willing to enter into a dialogue on Sunday morning – helping them to learn and to be equipped to go follow Jesus the rest of the week.
The circle tables should also help folks remember that it is not about the talking head up front. Instead of staring at the backs of someone’s head, they will be looking at their eyes, their face and will hopefully see someone who needs to be loved – a person and not a number.
I've been thinking for awhile about how a lot of the sermons I have heard seem to end up at a different spot than I originally expect them to, and how it seems like it would be a more effective form of communication if the "congregation" knew where the speaker was going and how the intended to get there, before the speaker embarked on the journey. This, I believe, would draw people into more of a learning posture and let the process be more dialogical, if only internally.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are describing and, due to my dilatory responses, what you have already started doing has the potential of not only creating an environment that is more conducive to learning but also has the potential for moving people out of their consuming postures.
It starts, I think, with the tools and information you make available to the congregants before (or as) they sit down. Rather than a handout with fill-in-the-blanks (something I have very strong opinions about) why not give them your thesis and a stripped down version of your outline? This would empower and enable them to make an informed decision on whether or not you made your point. This is scary and is definitely out of the box.
In addition to this you can leave the hermeneutical aspect of the "sermon" in their hands. A question I like to ask is, "If this were true for you what would last week have looked like? Be specific." Offer what your life would look like if it were more of a reality for you and then give them a few minutes to talk at the tables and then come back into the discussion and ask for questions. Just a thought.
Another thing...
A quick update for everyone.
ReplyDeleteTwo weeks ago we took out half of the rows of chairs and put in 5 round tables (4ft dia) - ie. we have one row of chairs, five tables, and then one/two back rows for later comers.
Overall the response was amazing! People are filling up the tables first and crowding five people into places at should only seat four. If this continues, I think we may have to get some more tables....
The Q/A time at the end of the service have been less successful as folks are not used to it... I am think about trying to stop more often during the sermon and ask questions versus waiting till the end.
Coupled with this would be Chris' suggestion in handing out my thesis/outline (without any blanks!) beforehand as it would give folks a place to start from...
We shall see if it works as I still think that an interactive time is more profitable than a lecture. =?
That's amazing Josh. I think we're all blessed you are taking risks in order to help others know Jesus a bit more. We can't wait to hear about what God does through all of this.
ReplyDelete